Bean to Barstool
A podcast exploring the intersections of craft beer and craft chocolate.
Bean to Barstool
Redux: Chocolate Educator Sanna Forslund
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Bean to Barstool Redux: Vintage but still relevant conversations from the archives without all the extra narration. Just classic interviews from really cool people in craft chocolate, craft beer, and other food and beverage fields.
In this edition, is a chocolate educator who uses chocolate as a way to travel the world, recalling places she’s been and imagining ones she hasn’t, and helping others to do the same. All that’s required is an open and curious mind and a piece of chocolate. Join us for a conversation with Sanna Forslund about traveling through our senses, tasting chocolate with a sense of wonder, and how the natural world and the people around us can help us grow in our ability to do both.
Check out David's book Pairing Beer & Chocolate: A Guide to Bringing the Flavors of Craft Beer and Craft Chocolate Together.
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Hi everyone, welcome to Bean to Barstool. I'm your host, David Nilsen. Today is a Redux episode. That's when I take an older but still relevant conversation from the Bean to Barstool archives, strip away all my narration from the beginning and end, and just share with you a really great conversation. Today is a conversation with chocolate educator Sana Forceland, in which we talked all about tasting chocolate and traveling through the tasting experience. Enjoy. So, Sana, why don't you tell me a little bit about what you do in the chocolate world?
SPEAKER_01Well, I used to introduce myself as a chocolate educator for a long time, and now I've added chocolate sommelier to the description because it's a word that people know from the wine industry. So it gives people a bit of an idea what I do. And I organize everything from tasting events to introduce people to the world of craft chocolate and bin to bar to freelance writing to educate in both spoken and written sense. I also work really hard on my social media to introduce the world of chocolate again. So I do Instagram lives and I try to showcase the beauty of chocolate that is out there.
SPEAKER_00So you introduce a lot of people to the idea of craft chocolate. What was your introduction to this years ago? Do you remember your first experience with good chocolate?
SPEAKER_01I've been a chocolate fan my whole life. So for me, it just developed slowly but surely because the craft chocolate scene is very young in Sweden. So I started with chocolate that I don't necessarily eat anymore. But I remember at the chocolate festival maybe 10 years ago, where they actually had some American bean to bar makers, it opened up a whole different story of what chocolate really is, instead of the bigger brands showcasing that, oh, there's Ecuador, there's Madagascar, which was a really interesting thing for me at the age of 15. But then when I could actually talk to someone who made chocolate and who had met the Coco farmers, then I was mind blown and I realized that I'm I'm not gonna get out of the chocolate. The passion for chocolate, it just kept on growing.
SPEAKER_00So how long did it take after that before you started doing this for a living? What you do now?
SPEAKER_01That took some time. Uh, because I'm I I'm I'm an educator, so I'm also a teacher and I teach languages. Um so I didn't want to jump into a full-on chocolate, making a living off of like making bonbons, which is where like that's what I thought my business would be when I started it. Because I wanted to be able to make sure that I would never get too stressed about making a living through chocolate. So I wanted to keep a day job so that I could dive in, but with security. Maybe three years ago, that's when it really fell into place that I'm a chocolate educator.
SPEAKER_00So, one of the things that you talk about on your Instagram account, which is also something that I like to talk about on this podcast, is the way that our emotions and memories interact with our sense of smell and our sense of taste and our perception of flavor. Do you remember when you first became aware of that for yourself, of having that kind of emotional or memory interaction with chocolate or another food or drink?
SPEAKER_01I think it's been with me always that different flavors make me think about other experiences. I know after my first visit to India, and then I came back walking like the streets of my hometown, and all of a sudden I would get a whift of something in the air, and it would make me travel back to that back street in India, and then that memory, and also with childhood dishes when you taste something and reminds me of grandma's cooking. So I've always had that with me. And when it specifically with chocolate, I think it just became a natural path to see this chocolate makes me think about this, and to use that as a tool to inspire other people to enjoy what they taste and eat.
SPEAKER_00A lot of times that can take us by surprise. You smell something, and you know you're not expecting to have a particular memory or image in mind. Is there a way that we can do that intentionally? When you're tasting chocolate, are there ways that you can kind of consciously try to lean on memory or emotion or imagination during the tasting process?
SPEAKER_01I try to always, like if especially when I really want to travel with chocolate, I try to clear my mind, sort of as in meditation, to just sit for a moment, to find that spot where I'm like, okay, I'm comfortable here, I'm sitting in a nice way, I don't have other flavors lingering on my tongue from before. And then to really dive into a deep tasting where you really smell the chocolate, you get the aromas, and then slowly tasting the chocolate and being very intuitive to listening in instead of expecting me to find those. Oh, it's Madagascar, so I'm gonna find these specific notes, or it's I'm sure it's gonna be full of redberry notes. Like, no, I'm just gonna dive in and see where it takes me. So I'm trying to be very, in a sense, kind to myself, not having um an expectation. Every chocolate bar I eat, I want to know who made it and where. So where is the chocolate maker located, as well as knowing where the cocoa beans come from? And if I have some prior knowledge to those about those places, or maybe I'll look something up. So when I sit down and taste this chocolate, sometimes I even close my eyes and I imagine that I am at that specific farm, for example, in Ecuador, or that maybe I am finally in Seattle, uh, and like all these places that I haven't been to, or the places that I have been to and want to return to, and I can keep those in my mind. So then I'm already very open to traveling, to um having those experiences that you do when you physically travel.
SPEAKER_00That's interesting. I know some tasters, both in chocolate and in other food and drink fields, like to know as little as they can when they're tasting a sample because they don't want to be colored. It sounds like you really want to lean into that experience and use that to inform what your mind is doing while you're tasting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I do like that. But it depends on the why I'm tasting this chocolate. Uh, if I'm tasting it, if if a maker asks me, okay, what flavor notes do you get in this bar, then maybe the less I know, the less I'm going to be influenced. And then I will be able to, okay, this is what my palate tells me. But since I I like to have the full experience for myself, and I also like to give the full experience when I have an event or a tasting or just sharing with friends, then it's really nice to know the story because that's what I do in a tasting. I share the story, I help people create and understand a different world, and then they can really dive into the sensory experience because I believe that those two are connected.
SPEAKER_00Let's talk about that a little bit of how you convey that to other people. When you're doing a tasting of any kind of food or drink, it can be easy to make that very technical and talk about ingredients and talk about process and all of that. While that's important, it sounds like you really want to give your attendees the same experience you're having of engaging all those different parts of yourself. How do you do that in person when you're doing an event? How do you help your attendees have that experience?
SPEAKER_01I always try to listen into the group because people are, as we know, so so different, and people might need different tools to be able to understand. Some people are more technical and they come to an event because they I want to learn. Whereas other people are already very open-minded. So when I start talking about what the cacao tree looked like, you can see that some people they are very visual, so they will already imagine this by themselves. So I first listen to the group and try to figure out who they are, and then I have the different chocolate bars that we are going to taste. They are the journey. So I always have an idea of where we're starting, both maker-wise and cocoa bean-wise. So where are we in the world and how are we going to travel around the world or around Central America or whatever the setup is for the tasting? And then I go through one bar at a time, and I always explain the regions, and I can sometimes add in the storytelling of traveling between the places, depending on how much the listeners are enjoying the journey. So every tasting that I have is it's dependent on the attendees. I never have a plan that goes A to B, and I need to say all of these things, or I need to give them this information, or I need to make sure that they have now traveled with me to Mexico. It depends on them and the questions they ask and how they interact with me and each other.
SPEAKER_00Do you find that there's an ideal size for getting that kind of interaction and getting a group to do that together?
SPEAKER_01Usually around 10 to 12 people. But it also depends on how well they know each other. And if it's a random group, a group of strangers, then I'd say about 10 people, then you can make eye contact with everyone and you can make sure that they know that I see them. And then it's also easier for them to raise their hand, or even I like it when people can just talk and there doesn't have to be like waiting for your turn.
SPEAKER_00Sure. I lead craft beer tastings professionally. And when I first started doing that uh years ago, I very much wanted to teach. I wanted to give information, I wanted to improve their knowledge. And I found in recent years that my stance has changed a little bit of wanting to see what I can learn from my attendees as well. Can you talk a little bit about the experience for you when you're doing chocolate education of what you get from that leading the group?
SPEAKER_01I definitely agree when it comes to learning from the group. Because if I go in with the mindset that I know this chocolate, I know these bars, I know the tasting notes, then it's a one-way communication. Whereas if I'm as curious to hear about what flavor notes or memories they get from tasting the chocolate, they will feel that. I think they will feel that positive curiosity from my side as well. And then it's easier for them to share. They will be more, oh, I I think maybe there's a little bit of like acidity. Is it a little bit of lemon? If I I open up to that conversation, so I never start by telling people what they are gonna taste. I try to be really clear with the fact that whatever they taste, that's correct because it comes about we all have our own flavor memories and we have different training when it comes to expressing our thoughts about finding the words. So whatever they taste is correct. I'm not gonna tell anyone that they are wrong. And as soon as people get that, they become more relaxed, and then the conversation really takes off.
SPEAKER_00For sure. You've mentioned travel a few times. We've talked about traveling through the flavor experience, especially in the last year and a half when we really haven't been able to move around the world much. Can you talk about how being able to do that through chocolate and through flavor has been important?
SPEAKER_01It's been so important to me. I I've dreamt about traveling since before I could travel by myself. It's been my like go-to thing of not being able to fall asleep as a kid, like closing my eyes and imagining I was traveling all over the world. And with chocolate, it's so easy because I just take a random bar from my stash of chocolate, and all of a sudden I get all of these places. I like as we've already mentioned, there's where's the maker from? Where are they based? Where does the cacao come from? And all of a sudden, I'm in three places at once. I'm still here in Stockholm, I'm in Mexico, uh, I'm in Tanzania, I'm in the US, I'm in Germany, I'm in the Philippines, and it gives me a sense of freedom, both now when it's been difficult to travel, but also from a sustainability perspective, I'm not gonna travel as much as I want to, because I would like to travel everywhere. And now I travel when I have a reason to, if there's something that I can fulfill or write about or visit someone. But we're I hope everyone is more cautious and we don't travel as much. But when it comes to flavor experiences, it's so easy. So as long as we have our minds and memories and a chocolate, then I can go anywhere I want.
SPEAKER_00I love that. So you mentioned sometimes looking up information about the bar, and that can kind of inform some of that travel that you do in your mind. Do you ever find yourself surprised by where your mind goes if it if it goes against maybe what you were expecting and you get images or you know, places that you that you weren't counting on during that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's I mean, as with everything, the mind wanders spontaneously. It's um, especially when you don't try to control it to see where where you end up. Um, I think maybe it's more the more surprising is when I'm when I think I'm super relaxed, and then I try to dive in and then I'm distracted by thoughts. As in a meditation, all of a sudden you start thinking about something else. Uh, and that's always like frustrating and annoying, and in that sense, a bit surprising. But sometimes a bar that I know, I know this one is like tropical fruity, and I really enjoy this bar. And in that sense, I have an idea of where I'm gonna go and what I'm gonna experience. And then depending on my mood of that day or the conversations I've had prior to the tasting, I can start to think about other things. I don't have a specific example, but it's uh it's not linear.
SPEAKER_00Have you had the opportunity in real life to travel to any of these cacao origins directly?
SPEAKER_01My main cacao destination is Mexico. So I've been there both before I knew there was like well, I knew there was chocolate in Mexico, but before I fully apprehended that. And then I've been back several times, and then I've also been lucky enough to see cacao trees in Chiapas in the south, and it's absolutely amazing, and I can't wait to keep exploring all of these cacao plantations and forests with wild cacao.
SPEAKER_00How does that affect being able to taste those chocolates now? Is that a just a whole different experience?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely. I mean, before I had seen a cow co tree in real life, before I had talked to people growing cacao, it's it's a whole different thing because you when we've just read something or we've talked to people, but in our in our everyday environment, it's really hard to really understand what it's all about. So the closer you get to, and it applies to any ingredient, any food, the closer we get to the origin, the more we know we will appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00Sure. So we've talked about all these different ways that flavor interacts with our minds, our memories, our emotions, our imaginations. That can certainly be true with any food or drink. It's something I encourage people to do with craft beer as well as chocolate, but it does seem like chocolate provokes this in some particular way, or maybe it's just chocolate tasters seem more readily willing to do that. Do you have any thoughts on why that might be? Why is this something that we see come up so much more among chocolate tasters and maybe some others?
SPEAKER_01I think it's because people really love chocolate. Anytime I say that I work with chocolate or I'm a chocolate educator, people are curious, interested, and they want to know more because everyone loves chocolate. And the ones who don't, they have to tell you they don't like chocolate and then they start the conversation, anyways. And since we all have these childhood memories when it comes to chocolate, we're so connected to memories when we eat chocolate. It's easy to open up a conversation when people see the difference between this bar and that bar, they all taste differently. But even when people talk about their childhood chocolate memories, people are in a sense traveling in their mind, in their memories. I think that's a big difference to other foods where you talk about flavor because wine, coffee, beer, people discover those later in life. Whereas for most people, chocolate is a childhood connection. So it's something that we have had with us for such a long time.
SPEAKER_00That makes sense. One thing that you talked about recently on your Instagram account that I thought was interesting was how people often refer to chocolate as a comforting flavor, something that they want, maybe when they've had a bad day and chocolate is going to cheer them up. And you don't really look at chocolate that way. It's something you want to save for your good days. Can you talk about that a little bit?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I discovered that on stressful days, because when you have a really stressful day, just and you just want to unwind, but you are in a bad mood or you're really sad, and then those things that we go to at that time, what I taste and eat then, even if they might make me feel happier, they will have there will be something negative associated with them as well. So I realize that I don't want chocolate when I'm sad because I don't want to associate chocolate with sadness or anger or frustration, these really strong negative feelings. I want chocolate to be a way to travel, a way for finding comfort in myself and not when I need comfort. Like that difference. If I want to unwind, then I'll sit down and I'll have a piece of chocolate because I'm already like just toning down and then bringing out that joy. Whereas if I'm eating chocolate when I'm really sad, I'm not gonna stop being sad. I'm still gonna be sad, but I'm just gonna eat something. And that's a comfort that is it's not fulfilling. I wanted to find I wanted to define that for myself and then have other things that I can eat when I'm sad.
SPEAKER_00Do you find that your mood or your emotional state affects how you taste things? Does the do you find different tasting notes or different things coming to mind based on how you're feeling?
SPEAKER_01Definitely. The more if I'm more stressed or if I have a lot of things on my mind, if I'm on the go and taste chocolate, I can't get all of those flavor profile. The flavor profile doesn't come out as clearly. I can still really enjoy it because it's it's always good, but then it becomes less of a it becomes less of a mindful experience. It's more it's just pleasurable, just joyful. So if I really want to dive in into the flavors and to The memories, then I have to be more relaxed to begin with. So that's why I usually do chocolate tastings for myself in the mornings.
SPEAKER_00Nature is very important to you in being out in nature. Can you talk about that a little bit and how that informs how you interact with chocolate when you're tasting?
SPEAKER_01Nature is a key ingredient in my life. Um, I'm actually, when I look up here, I look out the window, which has a huge tree outside. So I always try to associate myself with nature. It's been like that since childhood. Nature has to be, nature has to be there. Both of my parents are biologists. So we've always spent time in nature, instead of them saying, that's a bird, they've given me the name of the bird, the name of the flower. So I've always been very aware of the biodiversity, even if I necessarily didn't, even if I didn't necessarily know the word biodiversity growing up, my parents made sure that I knew how many different species of butterfly, plants, trees was all around us. And when it comes to chocolate, then that becomes it connects with the different varieties of cacao, wanting to understand the biology behind that bar. And I've been like that with other foods as well. I want to know what I eat, being in nature since childhood and having the need to be in nature and by the water and in the forest as an adult. It connects with wanting to know where things come from, as well as it gives me peace and clarity. I really feel that we need to be connected to nature in order to enjoy life and to find peacefulness and so on in our everyday life. So like two things I couldn't give up are chocolate and being outside and in nature, because both of those things really give me a lot of joy, start interesting conversation, and they they make me smile and to be happy.
SPEAKER_00And being in nature uh can help us become better tasters as well. I know you've mentioned recently the idea of literally stopping to smell the flowers. Can you talk a little bit about how those experiences out in the wild can help us build our vocabulary for tasting?
SPEAKER_01Definitely. I think since tasting and talking about tasting and to be able to explain what we eat and what we enjoy, we need the words. And in order to find those words, we need to have memories associated with a specific flavor or a specific taste, like the connection between those two. So unless I stop to smell the roses, like as you say, but to to stop and smell the flowers, to um have um a look at the different trees and the awareness to be able to pinpoint the differences, unless I do that, I'm not going to be able to discover those flavor notes in anything that I taste. So that's why I I try to now I do it consciously because I know that it makes a difference. If I know what uh the fresh pine uh needles smell like in the spring, and if I consciously save that as a memory, it's connected with that specific plant compared to when I was a kid, where I just ran around in the woods and then you smelled everything because you were there, and I ate all of the herbs and like things that you could eat in the wild because my mom told me, like, oh, taste this little leaf, it tastes really acidic. And then I tasted that because it was fun. Now I do it with a conscious mind, trying trying to save those memories.
SPEAKER_00That project of trying to attach words to what we're smelling and tasting, that's really what it is to become a good taster. People act like it's a natural ability or like it's some technical process that you can perfect. But you and I have both talked about the fact that it's really just being mindful and being able to attach words and learn vocabulary for what we're smelling and tasting.
SPEAKER_01Definitely. We need to find those details and memories. I I remember it clearly from like from books and lectures as well, where people really have talked about this. You can't describe a flavor note that you've never tasted. If I learn that, okay, in this chocolate or this wine, there are these flavor notes. Maybe I can like I can start to analyze which one would fall into what category. But unless I have been in a barn, I'm not gonna know what hay and so forth taste like. And sometimes it becomes really clear when you do a tasting with people from different backgrounds. So I might really think of like a deep dark bread, with like a deep rye bread, and that kind of like you can get some of those caramel notes in that heavy rye bread. But if someone has never tasted a bread like that, they they can't understand what I mean, but they will have a different word to explain that flavor based on their memories.
SPEAKER_00I think that idea is really powerful because it can allow chocolate or some other food or drink to serve as a bridge between people of different backgrounds to learn each other's memories, learn each other's cultural stories, and that sort of thing. Is there a way that we can consciously do that during a group tasting to use that as a way for people of different backgrounds to learn about each other?
SPEAKER_01I haven't thought about it in that way specifically, but I just say yes. Because if we add that, like I said, part of the tasting, when we really open up to let people share their thoughts, what do you taste? What do you think about when you taste this bar? And if someone then mentions a fruit that the other ones might not know, or they talk about this traditional cake that their grandma used to make, if you instead of just moving on and say, Oh, that's interesting, and then what do you taste? It's like, okay, so that cake, what was in that cake? Or oh, wait, this fruit. I I've never tasted that fruit. Can you tell me more about it? In that sense, we would add that element of further educating me as the one holding to space, but also for the attendees to have a possibility to learn about something that they are not familiar with.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. So you speak multiple languages, you teach languages. Do you find when you are tasting chocolate that words in different languages will be more appropriate at different times? Or do you kind of stick to one when you're doing that for yourself?
SPEAKER_01No, I I go between between all of the languages, um, definitely. So my tasting notes uh or my like chocolate journal is in Swedish, English, Spanish, sometimes German, um, because the words that pop into my mind are dependent on where I tasted that flavor. So specific things that I mean, specific Swedish flavors. I can't translate those. If it reminds me of a childhood cake or specific things that I know of in Swedish, then that mind will pop up in my mind. So certain things like lingam berries, they then I might the word might pop up in Swedish, but then I might still write it down in English. But certain things I'll I'll I'll switch between the languages. So sometimes my notes are hard for other people to understand.
SPEAKER_00Can you give me an example? What would a a flavor be that you're like, nope, it's this word in this language, nothing else quite gets it?
SPEAKER_01There's this spread uh that I've loved since I was a little kid. Uh, that's also part of like we were talking about comfort food. This is part of that sound for me. So there's this spread that I've always had on bread together with butter, but it has a very unique flavor. The furthest I've can come to explain that now as an adult is like a Swedish dulce di leche, but it's not that sweet. Um, but there's some vanilla notes in there, there's a lot of caramelized, there's a lot of sweet, but you also get like a deep dairy note. So it's there's no no translation to this in any other language. Also, like childhood sweets. Like in Sweden we make a very like very simple like oatmeal, cocoa powder, butter, and then you make little balls out of these and roll them in coconut or in in sugar. So it's not a very it's not a strange flavor, it's something that would apply to any language in the sense of the ingredients. But if I have a distinct memory of eating those specific treats, I write it down in Swedish, even if I'm in the middle of writing it. Usually my tasting notes are in English, but then specific words, or if I have uh uh something that reminds me of a Mexican dessert, then I'll write that in in Spanish for sure.
SPEAKER_00I love that. So I guess wrapping up here, I'd like to hear you just talk about how you taste chocolate. We've talked about the mental space for that and the emotional space. You sit down to taste a chocolate, walk me through those moments of what you're going to do, how you appreciate uh that chocolate with your different senses.
SPEAKER_01The typical way for me to taste chocolate would be in the morning. I'd uh start my more, I start my mornings with yoga and meditation, and then after that, I do a chocolate tasting or a chocolate travel. So I'm on my yoga mat and I've got a pen and a notebook by my side, and then I have the chocolate bar that I've chosen. I always open them up carefully and I look at the details, even when there's bars that I already know. Um, I don't always read the tasting notes that the maker has written down, but I want to know where it's made, the farm, the origin, uh, so that I have as much information about the beans as well as the makers as possible. And then I open it up and I look at all the beautiful details. I also check the like the in if there's any dust or if it's bloomed or anything. And that might is usually because I'm if it's been in uh bad condition at my place or something now, especially during the summer. Uh sometimes I want to know that before I taste it because it will change the experience. So when I've looked at the bar and appreciated it, then I always break off a piece. I sit down and I really smell it. There's this recommendation to sometimes start with a piece of chocolate further away from you and move it closer, because then you start to get the first whift, and then you have it close to your nose, and you can really dive into the aroma. And that's when I really start to not in the sense I have to imagine that I'm somewhere else, but closing my eyes. And if I want to be somewhere else, then I picture myself sitting under a cocoa tree in Mexico, or that I'm walking in the street and I'm passing by a pastry shop or something like that. That's when I try to get some images in my mind, and then I let the chocolate melt on my tongue. I always let them melt 100%. Uh, that's also ever since I was a kid, I've had I've let chocolate melt in my mouth to be able to appreciate all the flavors, even the chocolate from our childhoods that didn't at all have as many flavor notes as the ones that I enjoy now. And then I sit there and then I let the chocolate linger and try to see the what finishing notes I get. And then I usually sit for a while and just see where my mind has taken me. So in that sense, it can be equivalent to having a chocolate meditation um, or just a way to clear my mind and start my day.
SPEAKER_00Do you take notes as you do that, or do you wait till you're done and write down notes?
SPEAKER_01It depends on the bar. Um, sometimes I take notes as I I go, like after smelling the chocolate, I write down some some notes, but sometimes I just sit, and then when I'm done with the first exploration of the bar, I have a second piece and then I write down the notes.
SPEAKER_00Can you give me a recent example? What was a bar that you've tasted maybe in the last few days or the last week that you had a particularly good moment with?
SPEAKER_01I had um rica rica chocolate bar from obalo chocolate with the herbs from the Atacama Desert. So I was sitting in the in the countryside under a blue sky, uh, but early in the morning, so it wasn't too hot. And then I was really taking in the aromas, and I was transported in between the Atacama Desert where I know this grows, and I can imagine what it's like based on pictures that I've seen, but I was also in my childhood countryside home with the herbs that grow there by the sea, because that's the flavor notes that was really strong to me. Those were the herbs that I connected the bar with. And after I had that experience, I felt the need to talk to the woman who collects all these herbs. Uh so I wrote a message to her afterwards talking about this as well, because I felt really connected with Sweden and the Atacama Desert, which was really, really lovely.